Re: JCO: Marya: A Life

Oh, I neglected to note one other threat to the intellectual career that
Marya desires, and perhaps it's the most important threat of all: if she allows
herself to have sex with her ex-Marine boyfriend, she might enjoy it so much
that she will surrender her college ambitions and attempt to live a life deemed
"normal" for women at that time: marriage & children. If she does manage to go
to college later, it will be to become a public school teacher -- which is a
lot less than than the career young Marya wants for herself.
Canadian writer Alice Munro delt with this this problem very memorably in
LIVES OF GIRLS AND WOMEN, a novel-in-the-form-of-stories from the early 1970s.

In a message dated 1/6/2005 9:59:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
CoonHollow@aol.com writes:

<< Cyrano, thanks for the input (sorry, I don't agree that Marya had a "hot"
relationship--I don't think she even slept with him). I'm actually looking
for
an interpretation of that particular scene with Imogene when they are
looking
at the pictures of Dickie on Imogene's bed. The question arises as to
whether
Marya's attachment to Imogene is repressed lesbianism; Imogene's invitation,
if it was one, would have been for other reasons, imho. My classes have
spent
several sessions hotly debating this scene, so I'm interested in input from
those who have studied the text.

Anne D'Arcy, Ph.D.
Solano College
Suisun, Ca.


>>
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Re: JCO: Marya: A Life

Hi, Anne. I have read the lit with great interest. Unconsummated sex can be
hot -- the heat of frustration and loss. You have to read the story in the
context of its times -- the late 1950s, which I know firsthand. And back then,
of course, lesbianism would have been yet another taboo. If Marya were
judged "immoral" by the college authorities -- either for heterosexual or
homosexual activity (or, odd as it may seem now, even for solitary autoeroticism) --
she would have lost her scholarship, her chance at a university career, and the
respect of her university peers. Marya wants to be able to follow her
signature with her college title, as you do in your message here. She doesn't want
to be simply Marya.
The picture of Dickie -- great name! -- represents sex, period, which
is not available to Marya if she expects to persevere in her intellectual
ambitions and break out of her working class background. That Imogene and Marya
are able to have a civil conversation years later -- after Marya has achieved
middle class status -- makes perfect sense.
Cyrano

In a message dated 1/6/2005 9:59:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
CoonHollow@aol.com writes:

<< Cyrano, thanks for the input (sorry, I don't agree that Marya had a "hot"
relationship--I don't think she even slept with him). I'm actually looking
for
an interpretation of that particular scene with Imogene when they are
looking
at the pictures of Dickie on Imogene's bed. The question arises as to
whether
Marya's attachment to Imogene is repressed lesbianism; Imogene's invitation,
if it was one, would have been for other reasons, imho. My classes have
spent
several sessions hotly debating this scene, so I'm interested in input from
those who have studied the text.

>>
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Re: JCO: Marya: A Life

Cyrano, thanks for the input (sorry, I don't agree that Marya had a "hot" relationship--I don't think she even slept with him).  I'm actually looking for an interpretation of that particular scene with Imogene when they are looking at the pictures of Dickie on Imogene's bed. The question arises as to whether Marya's attachment to Imogene is repressed lesbianism; Imogene's invitation, if it was one, would have been for other reasons, imho.  My classes have spent several sessions hotly debating this scene, so I'm interested in input from those who have studied the text.

Anne D'Arcy, Ph.D.
Solano College
Suisun, Ca.

Re: JCO: Marya: A Life

Hi, Annie. I was dazzled by "Theft" when it first appeared as an independent
short story a couple of years before MARYA was published. Now I would not
agree that Marya is not in touch with her sexuality. She has a great hunger for
sex. In MARYA we learn that she had a very hot relationship with an
ex-Marine who had come back to their hometown. The thing is that sex was a LUXURY
that Marya could not afford. The relationship with the young man had to be
sacrificed. To marry or take a chance on getting pregnant out of wedlock would have
put a permanent end to her plans to escape the rural-marriage-and-kids life
that was the lot for women of her social sphere. No scholarships for single
mothers back then; in fact, an OUT OF WEDLOCK mother would have been expelled
from most colleges -- even if she were paying her own way. It's easy to forget
how punative sex mores were before the late 1960s. (That's why the relentless
erosion of women's reproductive rights under the Bush administration is so
baffling to those of us who remember that era; we wonder what on earth young
women are thinking of to risk being driven back to those benighted times.) Not
only did Imogene have beautiful clothes and exciting vacations and god know what
all else to envy, she also had an independent sex life (Dickie) since her
family money was available to rescue her from whatever trouble she got into.
Sex, like anything else, is a comodity and let the buyer beware. Marya had only
her scholarship, as did JCO in her undergrad & grad school years. No other
safety nets available. All pleasures -- eating in restaurants, buying a new
pair of gloves, pursuing a sex life -- must be deferred until the career
paychecks start coming in with some reliability.
Happy Day of the Epiphany,
Cyrano

In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:29:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CoonHollow@aol.com writes:

<< I'm teaching this novel this semester, a first for me, but I've often
taught
Chapter 7, often anthologized in a slightly different version as "Theft."
I'm curious about what others think is going on in that chapter where Marya
and
Imogene are looking at photos of Dickie on Imogene's bed. There is
obviously
some seductive thing going on there, but students have argued vehemently as
to whether or not Imogene is trying to seduce Marya when she says, 'Would
you
like, you know...Sometime..." ? In any case, it's lost on Marya, who is
not
at all in touch with her own sexuality at this point.

Annie




>>
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Re: JCO: Marya: A Life

PS -- It's not really lost on Marya -- though never discussed openly between
her and Imogene. And that inequality is what wrecks their friendship.
Cyrano

In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:29:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CoonHollow@aol.com writes:

<< In any case, it's lost on Marya, who is not
at all in touch with her own sexuality at this point.

Annie >>
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Re: JCO: "The Census Taker"

Be sure to contrast it with the stories "Swamps" and "Ceremonies," also
collected in BY THE NORTH GATE. We never did finish discussing that book. If
anyone's game, let's do it. I have always been partial to the story "A Legacy"
and talked about it with JCO when I interviewed her many years ago about her
then new book BLACK WATER, which like "Legacy" also touches on the subject of
capital punishment.
Best for the new year,
Cyrano

In a message dated 1/5/2005 4:25:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jward1108@hotmail.com writes:

<< Hi Ruth,

I'm copying the messages into this post so they will post to the archives,
in case others are interested in the discussion that took place last August
regarding this story.

Jane

*** >>
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Re: JCO: "The Census Taker"

Hi, JAne. Would ;you forward them to me too? Or, better still, just repost
them here for everyone. Are you sure the entire archives can no longer be
accessed?
Cyrano

In a message dated 1/5/2005 9:32:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jward1108@hotmail.com writes:

<< Unfortunately, the discussion of The Census Taker was before that date, so
the discussion is not in the archives. We did have a rather lively
discussion, as I remember. I have saved the messages and can forward them to
anyone interested.

Jane >>
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