JCO: The Expense of Spirit

Hi friends!
Thanks Cyrano for the sonnet. O uncultured me, I
thought the title meant the wages of alcohol.
Laurie

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RE: JCO: Bloodsmoor or Shuddering?

I vote yes for Bloodsmoor.

Kelli Wade

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jco@usfca.edu [mailto:owner-jco@usfca.edu] On Behalf Of
Cyranomish@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 8:16 PM
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: JCO: Bloodsmoor or Shuddering?

I thought I remembered that several people were keen on reading
Bloodsmoor next. May we see a show of hands?
Cyrano

In a message dated 8/23/2004 8:43:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurie@betteredit.net writes:

<< Ted has mentioned With Shuddering Fall, and Cyrano said we are doing
Bloodsmoor Romance next. Sorry, I don't mean to cause problems, but
which is it? Both?
>>
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Re: JCO: Bloodsmoor or Shuddering?

I don't mean to interfere with the discussion of Bloodsmoor. I just read
Shuddering and would be happy to discuss it with anybody who cares to.
There's a lot of JCO we might discuss here at any time!
Ted

on 8/23/04 6:15 PM, Cyranomish@aol.com at Cyranomish@aol.com wrote:

> I thought I remembered that several people were keen on reading Bloodsmoor
> next. May we see a show of hands?
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/23/2004 8:43:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> laurie@betteredit.net writes:
>
> << Ted has mentioned With Shuddering Fall, and Cyrano
> said we are doing Bloodsmoor Romance next. Sorry, I
> don't mean to cause problems, but which is it? Both?
>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
>
> To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
> To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
> To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

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JCO: Bloodsmoor or Shuddering?

Hi friends!
Ted has mentioned With Shuddering Fall, and Cyrano
said we are doing Bloodsmoor Romance next. Sorry, I
don't mean to cause problems, but which is it? Both?
I'll be receiving First Words soon. There was a
problem--my fault (I put my Canadian postal code
instead of my US ZIP code). As a gesture of goodwill
the seller decided to let me have it for free. His
name is Jack Steele, and his seller ID on ABEbooks is
jaxbks.
Laurie




=====
Better Edit!
http://www.betteredit.net
laurie@betteredit.net

"Wow, it looks a lot better than it did."
--MLIS student
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Re: JCO: Boys at a Picnic (spoilers)

Yes, that's the one. Thanks for the sonnet! That sheds some light. These are
all familiar sonnets to me, though it's been a long, long time.
Ted

on 8/23/04 6:14 PM, Cyranomish@aol.com at Cyranomish@aol.com wrote:

> Hi, Ted. You mean "The Expense of the Spirit"?
> Here's the Shakespeare sonnet that inspired the title:
>
> Th' expense of spirit in a waste of shame,
> Is lust in action; and, till action, lust
> Is perjured, murd'rous, bloody, full of blame,
> Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust;
> Enjoyed no sooner but despised straight;
> Past reason hunted, and no sooner had,
> Past reason hated as a swallowed bait
> On purpose laid to make the taker mad:
> Made in pursuit and in possession so;
> Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme;
> A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe;
> Before, a joy proposed; behind, a dream.
> All this the world well knows, yet none knows well
> To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.
>
> Guess JCO didn't care much for grad school at Madison WIS.
>
> Cyrano
>
>
> In a message dated 8/23/2004 7:25:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> music@thenightshades.com writes:
>
> << I'd be happy to discuss anything from any of these 3 sources that strikes
> anyone's fancy! BTW I was entertained that By the North Gate has the
> requisite academic-setting story.
> Ted >>
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> Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
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Re: JCO: Bloodsmoor or Shuddering?

I thought I remembered that several people were keen on reading Bloodsmoor
next. May we see a show of hands?
Cyrano

In a message dated 8/23/2004 8:43:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurie@betteredit.net writes:

<< Ted has mentioned With Shuddering Fall, and Cyrano
said we are doing Bloodsmoor Romance next. Sorry, I
don't mean to cause problems, but which is it? Both?
>>
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Re: JCO: Boys at a Picnic (spoilers)

Hi, Ted. You mean "The Expense of the Spirit"?
Here's the Shakespeare sonnet that inspired the title:

Th' expense of spirit in a waste of shame,
Is lust in action; and, till action, lust
Is perjured, murd'rous, bloody, full of blame,
Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust;
Enjoyed no sooner but despised straight;
Past reason hunted, and no sooner had,
Past reason hated as a swallowed bait
On purpose laid to make the taker mad:
Made in pursuit and in possession so;
Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme;
A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe;
Before, a joy proposed; behind, a dream.
All this the world well knows, yet none knows well
To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.

Guess JCO didn't care much for grad school at Madison WIS.

Cyrano


In a message dated 8/23/2004 7:25:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
music@thenightshades.com writes:

<< I'd be happy to discuss anything from any of these 3 sources that strikes
anyone's fancy! BTW I was entertained that By the North Gate has the
requisite academic-setting story.
Ted >>
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Re: JCO: Boys at a Picnic (spoilers)

Hi, Laurie: That imaginary horse turns up much later in a story entitled "We
Were Worried About You," (In the collection FAITHLESS). The story is about
how owning a car changes a family -- making them more remote from and callous
to their neighbors -- from the late 1940s thru 1960s. The protagonist rides in
the backseat of his parents' car imagining a horse galloping alongside them.
Cyrano

In a message dated 8/23/2004 12:47:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
laurie@betteredit.net writes:

<< It's about boys on a rampage. The two boys want to
please the ringleader, to the extent that one of them
pretends to see an imaginary horse. At the end, it's
not clear whether Rafe actually "sees" the horse or is
just daydreaming. >>


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Re: JCO: Re: Boys at a Picnic (spoilers)

I never cared for those "wild boy" stories. There's one in the collection
THE GODDESS AND OTHER WOMEN entitled "The Voyage to Rosewood," about a girl who
impulsively takes a bus ride to another town just for the adventure and is
tormented by some boys she meets. Then when she calls home for her father to get
her, the father slaps her. JCO can really zero in on the unpleasant events
that befall people.
Cyrano

In a message dated 8/23/2004 4:13:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jward199@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< Greetings to Laurie and everyone else:

I am also glad to be back! Thanks for all your efforts to get things going
again, Randy. This discussion group had become so interesting right before the
cascade that I truly missed reading the posts.

I wasn't crazy about this story either. JCO presents that nasty side of
life, exposing cold-blooded random killers as people, people gone irrevocably
wrong in their thinking. Certainly Rafe's thinking is warped.

>>
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Re: JCO: Boys at a Picnic (spoilers)

A pointless story about pointless violence? I guess that could make sense.
Once when I was in the hospital with a badly shattered leg, I needed reading
matter and got some anthology of American fiction- much of it was along
these lines, and I must say it didn't do much for my spirits! Fortunately I
got ahold of some Mark Twain, or I might not be here to write this...

In the interim I have devoured all of the North Gate stories and With
Shuddering Fall. I also read the JCO story in First Words- interesting to
note that the earliest story in By the North Gate, "In the Old World", is
only written 3 years later than the story in First Words- I suppose 17 to 20
is a big 3 years but I was amazed at how much more sophisticated the writing
was in "In the Old World".

I'd be happy to discuss anything from any of these 3 sources that strikes
anyone's fancy! BTW I was entertained that By the North Gate has the
requisite academic-setting story.
Ted

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JCO: Boys at a Picnic (spoilers)

Hi friends!
Woo hoo! Good to be back. Thanks Randy.
I thought some of the stories in this book were
better than others. Maybe it depends on the reader's
experiences or state of mind. Anyway I wasn't too
crazy about this one. It's a slice of life, sure; did
any of you get more out of it than that?
It's about boys on a rampage. The two boys want to
please the ringleader, to the extent that one of them
pretends to see an imaginary horse. At the end, it's
not clear whether Rafe actually "sees" the horse or is
just daydreaming. He definitely has a screw loose; he
would have killed the girl if she hadn't died first.
The story is told from various points of view: the
narrator's, Rafe's, and Dan's--and to a lesser extent,
Kennie's. Kennie is a true follower though.... Dan is
just as bad as Rafe but has a mind of his own.
The story mentions their "thirst"; they are thirsty
for beer but also for something else.
The title suggests perhaps the situation of boys of
a certain age. The boys turn away when the dice man
acknowledges them in a positive way; they don't want
to participate in the world, or they don't want to be
seen.
The name Rafe caught my eye. In *Unholy Loves*,
Oates mentions the composer Ralph (pronounced "Rafe")
Vaughan Williams, apropos of nothing as far as I could
tell. Maybe this name is one of her things. People on
this list have alluded to the white-blond girl. I
haven't run across her, but this book is full of
white-blond males.
Laurie

=====
Better Edit!
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laurie@betteredit.net

"Wow, it looks a lot better than it did."
--MLIS student
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