.comment-link {margin-left:.6em;}

Tone Clusters: the Joyce Carol Oates discussion group archive

Friday, August 17, 2007

Re: JCO: The Gravediggers Daughter - SPOILERS INCLUDED

Hi, Nicole.  The Jewish identity, as I observed in my earlier post, is not at all about religion in GDD.  It's about bloodlines torn apart by a historical catastrophe.  it's not really about cultural identity either since R and her cousin never meet in person in GDD, and we readers have only the cousin's letters to clue us about what that momentous Jewish experience of exile and subsequent professional success was like for the cousin, who appears to have been raised in a Jewish culture. Yes, the cemetery is a highly symbolic territory -- both for death and rebirth.  GGD leaves readers on the threshold
of a vital meeting between the two women, much as Marya's imminent meeting with her longlost mother ended the novel "Marya."
 
As for the otherness theme.  In JCO's fiction, as in life, I've found, all persons are "other" -- separated by all kinds of historical/social/class/gender forces, and most importantly by each person's distinctly individual egos.  Any connection -- whether it involves falling in love or in hate with another person -- has explosive potential.
Cyrano
 
In a message dated 8/17/2007 4:49:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ndprovencher@lake.ollusa.edu writes:
Cyrano -

I wonder if the Jewish Identity in the book is less about religion (as you suggest) and more about simply being the "other" as the time and setting of the book would make it.  The idea of the family at loss for religion in a Christian cemetery might say all that needs to be said about the family's heritage. 

I think we see this otherness in many of her other works - mostly dealing with class and the heritage surrounding class - it seems that the most explosive situations arise when these classes or others connect - what do you think?


-----Original
 




Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

Re: JCO: Doris Lessing?

Hi, Nicole. While on sabbatical with her husband in England in 1971-2,  JCO interviewed DL.  She also made friends with British writer Margaret Drabble. Have you seen JCO's interview with DL? (check website for ref)  JCO approaches the meeting with DL with great reverence for this face-to-face meeting with one of her favorite authors. JCO was also working on the novel Do With Me What You Will while in London. 
Cyrano
 
In a message dated 8/17/2007 4:56:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ndprovencher@lake.ollusa.edu writes:

Doris Lessing?

In research last year I discovered Doris Lessing.  This summer I finally had time to read some of her works and I was very taken with her style.  The books I read were The Fifth Child and  Ben, In the World (sequel to The Fifth Child).  I was wondering if anyone else has read or studied her?  I know she is a huge influence on JCO and I am very interested in her. There are many similarities in the styles of Lessing and JCO, but I thought that it was interesting that Lessing could evoke the same sense of conflict and search for the self that JCO portrays in her stories and novels not through violence or sexual experiences but rather through the idea of what is expected of woman.  Does anyone have any thoughts on Lessing or Oates and how they intersect?  I would be very anxious to hear them!

 




Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

Re: JCO: Zombie (Spoil Alert)

Nicole,

Quentin does not reappear in any other Oates work, he
is a completely stand-alone character.

I too recently re-read Zombie and was hugely impressed
by it. Now you mention it I recall the counting of
time with stones in Zombie but had not tied that in
with The Gravedigger's Daughter which I am close to
finishing.

Best wishes

Robert - England

--- "Provencher, Nicole D"
<ndprovencher@lake.ollusa.edu> wrote:

> Zombie -
>
> I read Zombie this evening. I was wondering if
> anyone had any ideas as to how this story "fits in"
> with Oates' other works? I have not read Oates
> chronologically or in any particular order (it seems
> more like the books just come to me) and I was
> disturbed by this work more than any other I have
> read. While many of Oates' stories involving female
> protagonists end with the feeling that the female
> will go on with her life and find a way to keep
> living, the idea of Quentin allowed to live and
> plotting and planning is very upsetting. Is this
> male (killer) character revisited in any other other
> works that you have run across? Any ideas on this
> novel anyone wants to discuss?
>
> Also, I noticed that Quentin counts time in this
> work by placing stones on the air-conditioner by the
> window. Rebecca does the same thing to count time
> in The Grave Digger's Daughter. A little detail -
> but I found it interesting that it appeared in two
> completely different characters - has anyone seen
> this in other works?
>
> - Nicole (Texas)
>

___________________________________________________________
Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

Celestial Timepiece: A Joyce Carol Oates Home Page:
http://jco.usfca.edu/

JCO: Zombie (Spoil Alert)

Zombie -

I read Zombie this evening. I was wondering if anyone had any ideas as to how this story "fits in" with Oates' other works? I have not read Oates chronologically or in any particular order (it seems more like the books just come to me) and I was disturbed by this work more than any other I have read. While many of Oates' stories involving female protagonists end with the feeling that the female will go on with her life and find a way to keep living, the idea of Quentin allowed to live and plotting and planning is very upsetting. Is this male (killer) character revisited in any other other works that you have run across? Any ideas on this novel anyone wants to discuss?

Also, I noticed that Quentin counts time in this work by placing stones on the air-conditioner by the window. Rebecca does the same thing to count time in The Grave Digger's Daughter. A little detail - but I found it interesting that it appeared in two completely different characters - has anyone seen this in other works?

- Nicole (Texas)

JCO: Doris Lessing?

Doris Lessing?

In research last year I discovered Doris Lessing.  This summer I finally had time to read some of her works and I was very taken with her style.  The books I read were The Fifth Child and  Ben, In the World (sequel to The Fifth Child).  I was wondering if anyone else has read or studied her?  I know she is a huge influence on JCO and I am very interested in her. There are many similarities in the styles of Lessing and JCO, but I thought that it was interesting that Lessing could evoke the same sense of conflict and search for the self that JCO portrays in her stories and novels not through violence or sexual experiences but rather through the idea of what is expected of woman.  Does anyone have any thoughts on Lessing or Oates and how they intersect?  I would be very anxious to hear them!

RE: JCO: The Gravediggers Daughter - SPOILERS INCLUDED

Cyrano -

I wonder if the Jewish Identity in the book is less about religion (as you suggest) and more about simply being the "other" as the time and setting of the book would make it. The idea of the family at loss for religion in a Christian cemetery might say all that needs to be said about the family's heritage.

I think we see this otherness in many of her other works - mostly dealing with class and the heritage surrounding class - it seems that the most explosive situations arise when these classes or others connect - what do you think?


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jco@usfca.edu on behalf of Cyranomish@aol.com
Sent: Tue 8/14/2007 8:15 AM
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: JCO: The Gravediggers Daughter - SPOILERS INCLUDED


Hi, Eric. I had read the final chapter -- the letters between the two
cousins -- last year in a story collection:
High Lonely, I think. R's cousin, of course, had a completely different
background. She and her family had great struggles in exile from their Austrian
home, but those experiences made the cousin (whose name I now forget) into a
tough, cosmopolitan person, at a great cost, of course. Whereas Rebecca
remained "buried alive" in her "safe" upstate New York home. The cemetery
theme: how people bury their pasts and suffer as a result, is well done. Both
women were both flawed and strengthened by their experiences -- the Dr. is a
harsh, aloof, lonely person (hence the story collection title "High Lonely," I
wonder.) Rebecca found a kind husband and moved into a saner life than she had
with her frustrated father. The theme of leaving one's earliest identity
behind -- of metamorphosing into a new kind of creature -- goes back to the
novel "them" (1969) and beyond that to "Shuttering Fall" (1964)?) I hope
Rebecca made contact with her battered brother, who thinks he recognizes her in a
crowd toward the end of Gravediggers Daughter. Neither woman's life is
"better" than the other's. Both lives required self-mutilations in the name of
survival.
(I don't have the book with me; and some of the story and most of the names
have faded from my memory.)
I find it notable that "recovering" one's Jewish identity in this book
and others has gently skirted the whole issue of religion. JCO's heroine's do
not visit Jewish places of worship in their explorations, nor do they make
contact with practicing Jews. Perhaps those adventures lie ahead in other
stories. Thus far Jewish heritage pertains simply to blood lines. I wonder how
the two families would have developed had R's cousin's family been able to
make it to upstate NY, as planned. It would have broken the nutty, fatal
isolation of R's family to some degree.
Best,
Cyrano



Best,
Cyrano
In a message dated 8/14/2007 6:44:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
erickarl78@hotmail.com writes:

Hi Nicole
Thanks for your message. I was hoping we could discuss this novel here. I
think it's one of my new favorite novels by Oates, one of her absolute best. As
Michael Silverblatt commented in his interview with her, Gravediggers
Daughter seems to bring together a lot of the themes and subjects which are closest
to Oates as a writer. One of the things I think he was referring to was the
way in which Oates often writes of the survival of an individual girl who
perhaps feels she wasn't meant to survive (either in the personal sense or
within her own species). The man Rebecca meets on the path home who might have
killed her or her own father's decision to execute his family.
I found the book very moving as well. It's compelling how Rebecca feels
throughout her life that she both belongs to America, yet doesn't belong. She's
accepted as a bright pretty American girl, but only if she disguises her
Jewish heritage. She (finally) finds herself in a successful marriage to a good
man, but feels she can't continue her ties with her surviving family in order
to maintain her new position. This distortion of the self raises obvious
questions about to what degree the individual is really surviving if her
identity is so thoroughly transformed and denied. Perhaps because America is such a
great melting pot this is why Oates is particularly concerned with this theme
in Gravediggers Daughter and so much of her other work.
Which parts perplexed you? The ending was quite a surprise - though in a way
it felt right as well. Rebecca's long lost cousin is someone who took the
complete opposite approach to Rebecca, did not distort her identity and feels
absolutely no need to either apologize for who she is or expect different
treatment because of her family's struggles. This has, of course, created an
entirely different set of problems for her. What we seem to glimpse at the end is
a possibility that these two diametric personalities might come together
(though for Rebecca it may be too late). They may be able to set aside their
strategies for dealing with life within a larger society and come together as a
family. If it doesn't sound to achingly sentimental, I think Oates is saying
by this ending that family is where many people draw their strength to really
survive - from both the supporting influence of their love and the ability
to be with those who share a common heritage.
I'd love to hear what other people think as well. I'm seeing Oates read
from the book tonight in London and will relate anything back to the group
which is of particular interest.
eric


************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

RE: JCO: The Gravediggers Daughter - SPOILERS INCLUDED

Eric,

I would have to say that the resolution of the characters is what was most perplexing to me. I am very used to JCO "leaving" her characters to go on with their lives when the story ends, but leaving the characters off and then picking up with the cousins seemed strange to me. It did not seem as if The Grave Digger's Daughter was a story about the cousins, although I can understand the need for Rebecca/Hazel to want to make that connection. It is very ironic that the cousin desires this same connection only when it is to late.

I agree with you completely about this novel being one of her finest. It seemed that several of the themes she deals with in other works have a more finished feeling. The girl who survives when she is not meant to (her father, Tignor, the man on the path - there were several for Rebecca) seems to take on a particularly American quality here (as she is often reminded by her father and brothers "you were born here") - however, the chronology of the story was such that these attempts were not the most important thing - but rather the dealing with the events that made Rebecca who she was (or was not) - a truly American idea of reinventing the self. Was she denying this in contacting her cousin? Or was it simply ok once she raised her son and felt detached from who she was? I found this question arising again and again as I neared the end of the book.

Your observations about family and drawing strength from family seem to answer this question in part - that she was returning to family. But I wonder if any of it was real for her? She invented the cousin for herself in childhood games as she reinvented herself several times over throughout the novel - I wonder if there was a common heritage? Is family in genetics or what is invented? She had genetic and familiar (as with Chez) connections - but none of them seemed real?

I did enjoy the novel - I found myself reading and rereading passages that were particularly striking. I would love to hear what you and others think - and questions the novel might have raised ...

- Nicole (Texas)


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jco@usfca.edu on behalf of Eric Anderson
Sent: Tue 8/14/2007 5:44 AM
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: RE: JCO: The Gravediggers Daughter - SPOILERS INCLUDED

Hi Nicole

Thanks for your message. I was hoping we could discuss this novel here. I think it's one of my new favorite novels by Oates, one of her absolute best. As Michael Silverblatt commented in his interview with her, Gravediggers Daughter seems to bring together a lot of the themes and subjects which are closest to Oates as a writer. One of the things I think he was referring to was the way in which Oates often writes of the survival of an individual girl who perhaps feels she wasn't meant to survive (either in the personal sense or within her own species). The man Rebecca meets on the path home who might have killed her or her own father's decision to execute his family.

I found the book very moving as well. It's compelling how Rebecca feels throughout her life that she both belongs to America, yet doesn't belong. She's accepted as a bright pretty American girl, but only if she disguises her Jewish heritage. She (finally) finds herself in a successful marriage to a good man, but feels she can't continue her ties with her surviving family in order to maintain her new position. This distortion of the self raises obvious questions about to what degree the individual is really surviving if her identity is so thoroughly transformed and denied. Perhaps because America is such a great melting pot this is why Oates is particularly concerned with this theme in Gravediggers Daughter and so much of her other work.

Which parts perplexed you? The ending was quite a surprise - though in a way it felt right as well. Rebecca's long lost cousin is someone who took the complete opposite approach to Rebecca, did not distort her identity and feels absolutely no need to either apologize for who she is or expect different treatment because of her family's struggles. This has, of course, created an entirely different set of problems for her. What we seem to glimpse at the end is a possibility that these two diametric personalities might come together (though for Rebecca it may be too late). They may be able to set aside their strategies for dealing with life within a larger society and come together as a family. If it doesn't sound to achingly sentimental, I think Oates is saying by this ending that family is where many people draw their strength to really survive - from both the supporting influence of their love and the ability to be with those who share a common heritage.

I'd love to hear what other people think as well. I'm seeing Oates read from the book tonight in London and will relate anything back to the group which is of particular interest.

eric


Subject: JCO: The Gravediggers DaughterDate: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 04:18:50 -0500From: ndprovencher@lake.ollusa.eduTo: jco@usfca.edu

I have just finished The Gravediggers Daughter. I am both deeply moved and perplexed by the work - especially the ending. Has anyone else read this work? Any thoughts? - Nicole
_________________________________________________________________
Recharge--play some free games. Win cool prizes too!
http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink