Re: JCO: Discussion Question

Thats a great point you bring up. Maybe the whole book is a metaphor for a much larger idea. After reading the book I did get the impression that she was just a spineless victim who is under the Senators spell. With the idea you brought up, it does seem as though there is more to the story. The book was sort of confusing in the fact that JCO was constantly refering back to phrases like "black water filled her lungs and she died". She does slowly die, and could represent how slowly she came under the spell but how fast it killed her.

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Anderson <erickarl78@hotmail.com>
To: jco@usfca.edu
Sent: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:28:00 -0500
Subject: Re: JCO: Discussion Question

His actions (or lack of actions) lead to her death in that he chose not to tell anyone about the accident. If he had told someone or if he leapt in to bring her out of the car, she might have lived. Do you think of her as a single hapless victim entranced by the power and prestige of the senator or do you think her slow drowning is more a representation of how American society is lulled and slowly drowning in its own obsessively consumerist culture? 
 
eric 
 
>From: boardingchick421@aol.com 
>Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu 
>To: jco@usfca.edu 
>Subject: Re: JCO: Discussion Question 
>Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:10:48 -0500 
> 
>yes the woman ends up dead but as the book progresses, th! e Senators actions >towards Kelly leads her to her death. 
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Re: JCO: Discussion Question

I think in a way she is some what responsable for her fate. She allowed the Senator to have complete control over her and not standing up for herself. --She would not speak up about going the wrong way--. Although she obviously can not see into the future about her fate with this man, she should not have let him overpower her the way he did.

Re: JCO: Discussion Question

I think treating the request seriously was the right thing to do. Our new member got off to a bad start not knowing how to begin a discussion in this type of forum, but she's paid for it dealing with a great deal of sarcasm.

Eric suggests the incident could be a metaphor for society's behavior, but I'll throw the question back to Katie on a more literal level: do you think it is reasonable to say that Kelly is complicit in her own fate, or is saying that too much of "blaming the victim?"

Randy

-----Original Message-----
>From: RFoley7292@aol.com
>Sent: Jan 19, 2006 8:42 AM
>To: jco@usfca.edu
>Subject: Re: JCO: Discussion Question
>
>I definitely got sucker-punched, treating that request seriously....
>
>Personally, I find Black Water to be a lesser effort in the JCO ouevre, the
>most interesting part of which is the poetic flow of the language which so
>perfectly imitates the ebb and flow of the water itself.....
>
>By the by, has anyone ever seen the opera based on BW for which JCO wrote
>the libretto?

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Re: JCO: Discussion Question

I haven't seen the opera, but I have the CD from it which is very good.
There is one funny song in particular all about a picnic with people singing
about all the food, like a glorification of all this gluttony they are
participating in. And I believe that the woman who originally played Kelly
in the first production is a member of this discussion forum. I hope she
still is a member because she was very nice (and she has a beautiful voice
on the CD.

eric

>From: RFoley7292@aol.com
>Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
>To: jco@usfca.edu
>Subject: Re: JCO: Discussion Question
>Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:42:09 EST
>
>I definitely got sucker-punched, treating that request seriously....
>
>Personally, I find Black Water to be a lesser effort in the JCO ouevre,
>the
>most interesting part of which is the poetic flow of the language which so
>perfectly imitates the ebb and flow of the water itself.....
>
>By the by, has anyone ever seen the opera based on BW for which JCO wrote
>the libretto?

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Re: JCO: Discussion Question

I definitely got sucker-punched, treating that request seriously....

 

Personally, I find Black Water to be a lesser effort in the JCO ouevre, the most interesting part of which is the poetic flow of the language which so perfectly imitates the ebb and flow of the water itself.....

 

By the by, has anyone ever seen the opera based on BW for which JCO wrote the libretto?

Re: JCO: Discussion Question

His actions (or lack of actions) lead to her death in that he chose not to
tell anyone about the accident. If he had told someone or if he leapt in to
bring her out of the car, she might have lived. Do you think of her as a
single hapless victim entranced by the power and prestige of the senator or
do you think her slow drowning is more a representation of how American
society is lulled and slowly drowning in its own obsessively consumerist
culture?

eric

>From: boardingchick421@aol.com
>Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
>To: jco@usfca.edu
>Subject: Re: JCO: Discussion Question
>Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:10:48 -0500
>
>yes the woman ends up dead but as the book progresses, the Senators actions
>towards Kelly leads her to her death.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
>
>To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
>To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
>To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

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Re: JCO: Discussion Question

Could you propose some particular questions you had yourself when reading
the book then? Also, offer your perspective on aspects of it as well.
People on discussion forums don't respond well when they are issued an order
to discuss something without being given any detailed perspective from which
to bounce off of.

Thanks
eric

>From: boardingchick421@aol.com
>Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
>To: jco@usfca.edu
>Subject: Re: JCO: Discussion Question
>Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:11:51 -0500
>
>no i was wondering if we could talk about the book. i am writing my own
>paper thank you very much.
>
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>Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
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Re: JCO: Discussion Question

I suspect you are putting us on----have you ever heard of Senator Ted Kennedy?  Do you know who Mary Jo Kopechne was?  and most of all, do you know about the ethics of doing your own work, and not asking grownups to do your work for you?

 

If you can write your own paper, than you should do so.  If you have accessed this site, you need to read further and see that our purpose is not to help teenyboppers (or anyone else) write papers.

Re: JCO: Discussion Question

no i was wondering if we could talk about the book. i am writing my own
paper thank you very much.

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Re: JCO: Discussion Question

yes the woman ends up dead but as the book progresses, the Senators
actions towards Kelly leads her to her death.

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Re: JCO: Discussion Question

Um, RF, what we are responding to here is a teenybopper who wants us to write her paper for her.....we are not being serious......

 

 

Christa

Re: JCO: Discussion Question

Um, as I recall, the women ends up very dead.  That would be considered detrimental in most circles, yes?

 

Lisa