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Tone Clusters: the Joyce Carol Oates discussion group archive

Tuesday, October 23, 2007

Re: JCO: Graduate Research Project

Richard,
Black Girl White Girl is also pertinent here. Although it's a book about girls, MInette's farther is an important black character. As opposed to Genna's white father. I suppose you would need to use some comparison if you want to show how JCO constructs black masculinity. Is it any different (and if so how) from white masculinity? What are your thoughts on the subject?
Cheers,
Marie (Sweden)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: JCO: Graduate Research Project

Hi, Richard.  Don't forget these early JCO short stories:
   "Fine White Mist of Winter" in By the North Gate (1963)
   "The Molesters" in the novel Expensive People (1968)
   "Up From Slavery," in The Hungry Ghosts (1974) this story originally published in Playboy Magazine
   "Concerning the Case of Bobby T" and "Assault" in The Goddess & Other Women (1974)
   "Golden Gloves" in Raven's Wing (1986)
   "An American Adventure" in The Seduction & Other Stories (1975)
   also the play Cry Me A River (198?)
 
Linking these stories to the novels would be a far more interesting and valuable endeavor than rehashing other readers' criticisms.  The fiction itself is of vastly more importance than any critique material.  JCO's short stories are vital to any appreciation of her novels. 
     I'll be interested in your take on some of these early JCO works.  Please copy me a message here at cyranomish@aol.com as well as via Tone Clusters.  There seems to be some difficulties with my communications with TC -- technical no doubt.
Best,
Cyrano 
  
  
 
 
In a message dated 10/14/2007 1:09:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rlpeacock6@hotmail.com writes:
I am a graduate student who is currently doing research on how black (African-American) masculinity is constructed in the fiction of Joyce Carol Oates. For my research project I am focusing on the following books specifically: I'll Take You There, I Lock the Door upon Myself and Because It is Bitter, Because It Is My Heart. That said, I'd like to find out what people know about this subject matter, either broadly or specifically. I'd  especially like to know if anyone can direct me to any pertinent literary criticism or like-minded study.

Thank you.

Richard



 




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Re: JCO: The Gravediggers Daughter - SPOILERS INCLUDED

Hi Nicole,
It took me quite a while to get hold of the book and finish reading it. I
hope you are still interested in hearing what other people thought about it.
I loved the book and could not stop reading it. The ending was unexpected
but in a sense not surprising. While reading the book I found the passages
relating to imaginary Freyda so strongly beautiful and moving that I felt
intuitively that the author will come back to them in some way. Also - I
think they are well prepared by what happens at the end of the story, when
Rebecca goes down to the hotel kitchen to find herself among "her own
people" where she felt she belonged. Her son was now safe and ready to start
his own life, and she could return to her real self, if only partially and
in secret from her husband.
Chet, although kind and loving, remained in fact one of them, the enemies,
as Jacob Schwartz described them. She pretended to be somebody else and that
gave her enormous pain although it also helped her to give her son happy
childhood and musical education. Rebecca in a sense used Gallagher because
she did not love him. She even ensured that Zach get a large inheritance
from Thaddeus. She was faithful to Chet but she was not honest with him. I
suppose he accepted what he got - he was hoping to make her love him, in
which he failed. Was it her revenge on "them" for what happened to her in
her childhood? To get their money to support herself and her son, to be rich
and successful like them? Or was it to fulfil her father's prophecy- you are
one of them, they will not harm you.
The identity crisis is a great theme that can be interpreted in many ways.
That you cannot really bury your past. That it will come to you not only to
haunt you. You will miss it painfully. Particularly those happy bits and
Freyda was a very happy memory for Rebecca although broken so abruptly and
cruelly. The tragedy was that Freyda survived but, like Rebecca, was
psychologically destroyed and emotionally empty. Rebecca's letters have
gradually awoken Freyda's emotions but all of this was happening too late
for poor Rebecca.
What a wonderful novel JCO has written!
Cheers,
Marie (Sweden)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Provencher, Nicole D" <ndprovencher@lake.ollusa.edu>
To: <jco@usfca.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: JCO: The Gravediggers Daughter - SPOILERS INCLUDED


Eric,

I would have to say that the resolution of the characters is what was most
perplexing to me. I am very used to JCO "leaving" her characters to go on
with their lives when the story ends, but leaving the characters off and
then picking up with the cousins seemed strange to me. It did not seem as
if The Grave Digger's Daughter was a story about the cousins, although I can
understand the need for Rebecca/Hazel to want to make that connection. It
is very ironic that the cousin desires this same connection only when it is
to late.

I agree with you completely about this novel being one of her finest. It
seemed that several of the themes she deals with in other works have a more
finished feeling. The girl who survives when she is not meant to (her
father, Tignor, the man on the path - there were several for Rebecca) seems
to take on a particularly American quality here (as she is often reminded by
her father and brothers "you were born here") - however, the chronology of
the story was such that these attempts were not the most important thing -
but rather the dealing with the events that made Rebecca who she was (or was
not) - a truly American idea of reinventing the self. Was she denying this
in contacting her cousin? Or was it simply ok once she raised her son and
felt detached from who she was? I found this question arising again and
again as I neared the end of the book.

Your observations about family and drawing strength from family seem to
answer this question in part - that she was returning to family. But I
wonder if any of it was real for her? She invented the cousin for herself
in childhood games as she reinvented herself several times over throughout
the novel - I wonder if there was a common heritage? Is family in genetics
or what is invented? She had genetic and familiar (as with Chez)
connections - but none of them seemed real?

I did enjoy the novel - I found myself reading and rereading passages that
were particularly striking. I would love to hear what you and others
think - and questions the novel might have raised ...

- Nicole (Texas)


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jco@usfca.edu on behalf of Eric Anderson
Sent: Tue 8/14/2007 5:44 AM
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: RE: JCO: The Gravediggers Daughter - SPOILERS INCLUDED


Hi Nicole

Thanks for your message. I was hoping we could discuss this novel here. I
think it's one of my new favorite novels by Oates, one of her absolute best.
As Michael Silverblatt commented in his interview with her, Gravediggers
Daughter seems to bring together a lot of the themes and subjects which are
closest to Oates as a writer. One of the things I think he was referring to
was the way in which Oates often writes of the survival of an individual
girl who perhaps feels she wasn't meant to survive (either in the personal
sense or within her own species). The man Rebecca meets on the path home who
might have killed her or her own father's decision to execute his family.

I found the book very moving as well. It's compelling how Rebecca feels
throughout her life that she both belongs to America, yet doesn't belong.
She's accepted as a bright pretty American girl, but only if she disguises
her Jewish heritage. She (finally) finds herself in a successful marriage to
a good man, but feels she can't continue her ties with her surviving family
in order to maintain her new position. This distortion of the self raises
obvious questions about to what degree the individual is really surviving if
her identity is so thoroughly transformed and denied. Perhaps because
America is such a great melting pot this is why Oates is particularly
concerned with this theme in Gravediggers Daughter and so much of her other
work.

Which parts perplexed you? The ending was quite a surprise - though in a way
it felt right as well. Rebecca's long lost cousin is someone who took the
complete opposite approach to Rebecca, did not distort her identity and
feels absolutely no need to either apologize for who she is or expect
different treatment because of her family's struggles. This has, of course,
created an entirely different set of problems for her. What we seem to
glimpse at the end is a possibility that these two diametric personalities
might come together (though for Rebecca it may be too late). They may be
able to set aside their strategies for dealing with life within a larger
society and come together as a family. If it doesn't sound to achingly
sentimental, I think Oates is saying by this ending that family is where
many people draw their strength to really survive - from both the supporting
influence of their love and the ability to be with those who share a common
heritage.

I'd love to hear what other people think as well. I'm seeing Oates read from
the book tonight in London and will relate anything back to the group which
is of particular interest.

eric


Subject: JCO: The Gravediggers DaughterDate: Tue, 14 Aug 2007
04:18:50 -0500From: ndprovencher@lake.ollusa.eduTo: jco@usfca.edu

I have just finished The Gravediggers Daughter. I am both deeply moved and
perplexed by the work - especially the ending. Has anyone else read this
work? Any thoughts? - Nicole
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