.comment-link {margin-left:.6em;}

Tone Clusters: the Joyce Carol Oates discussion group archive

Saturday, September 10, 2005

Re: JCO: Upon the Sweeping Flood & uplifting fiction

FYI, JCO's Wuthering Heights essay is online here: http://
jco.usfca.edu/bronte.html

Randy

On Sep 10, 2005, at 7:44 AM, Cyranomish@aol.com wrote:

> Yes, BELLEFLEUR has the happy ending of the younger generation
> escaping
> the older generation's bad influences. JCO's great essay on
> WUTHERING HEIGHTS
> speaks eloquently on this topic too. I think that essay appears in
> the essay
> collection PROFANE ART, long out of print, alas, but no doubt
> reprinted various
> other places. The introduction to some edition of WH, no doubt.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

Re: JCO: Upon the Sweeping Flood & uplifting fiction

Hi, Steve. Most of the fiction that I consider worth reading has sad or
ambiguous endings. "Uplifting fiction" to me suggests traditional (but not all)
romance fiction or stories about unbelieveably "good" people. I love the way
JCO shows the double-sided nature of most things, i.e. in the story "Swamps"
(in BY THE NORTH GATE) an old man wants to help a pregnant, vagabond girl. She
needs help, and his instinct to provide it is good. But he also wants to do it
all himself and be -- as my grandmother would say -- "a big shot." This
leads to the disaster at the end of the story. That's my idea of a good story.
The story "Ceremonies," also collected in BY THE NORTH GATE shows a
family, a precursor of the Mulvaney family perhaps, who are so rich and
self-sufficient that they are totally alienated from their poorer neighbors. A fire
burns down their property, but a community-wide effort to fight the fire --
though ineffectual -- breaks down the barrier between the community and the proud
family. (I can't help thinking about other countries who have offered to help
the US in the wake of Katrina: and how their offers have been received by the
folks who presently run this country.)
Yes, BELLEFLEUR has the happy ending of the younger generation escaping
the older generation's bad influences. JCO's great essay on WUTHERING HEIGHTS
speaks eloquently on this topic too. I think that essay appears in the essay
collection PROFANE ART, long out of print, alas, but no doubt reprinted various
other places. The introduction to some edition of WH, no doubt.
Winterthurn has a very "black comedy" happy ending. The worm turns.
JCO and Drabble had a friendly exchange of reviewing each other's
novels in the early 1970s. In THE NEEDLES EYE Drabble even gives JCO a cameo
appearance when the heroine recalls a childhood friend named "Joyce."
Best,
Cyrano

PS My message to Christa got bounced back. I think I misaddressed it. Would
someone confirm it back here to me at Cyranomish@aol.com?

In a message dated 9/10/2005 9:42:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jandsmerritt@earthlink.net writes:

<< I certainly don't want to suggest that all good fiction should have a sad
or
ambiguous ending, but my own interests and prejudices are such that when I
see a term such as "uplifting fiction", my first reaction is to think of
Socialist Realism (can you imagine JCO being forced to work under the Soviet
system!). Note that when I say this, I'm describing my own personal
reaction. I absolutely don't mean to suggest that books that leave readers
with a positive feeling must be the moral equivalent of romances set in
tractor factories. I think, though, that I may be a bit like JCO in being
very attuned to how easily things can go wrong. Perhaps that's all the more
reason to benefit from being reminded that sometimes things go well.

SPOILERS FOLLOW RE "WINTERTHURN" & "BELLEFLEUR"

When I tried to think of works by JCO with a "positive" ending, "Bloodsmoor"
and "Winterthurn" were the only things that came to mind at once (and isn't
it like JCO to write a novel in which a couple achieves happiness by means
of axe murder?). On reflection, I'd say that some of JCO's other novels
have a different sort of uplift. For example, in "Bellefleur", you could
say that there's a distinctly positive aspect to the ending, both because
the world is a better place without the majority of the Bellefleur family in
it, and because some of the younger Bellefleurs escape, and have the hope of
living healthier lives than they could have done had they retained their
family connections. Once you start thinking in those terms, some of JCO's
other novels suggest positive elements in the end, if only because terribly
dysfunctional characters are beginning to assert themselves, even if they do
so in unhealthy or ineffective ways; we can imagine that, just possibly,
they may do better later on ("them", "Do With Me What You Will", "Man
Crazy"). But it's hard to think of works by JCO that give a final
impression of "Oh, how nice!"

One author who comes to mind as having great artistic integrity but
sometimes (not always!) providing more positive endings than JCO is Margaret
Drabble. Has your other group considered anything by her? Good luck!

Steve

>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

Re: JCO: Upon the Sweeping Flood & uplifting fiction

Hi, Gary. When I think of the term "tragedy" I think of a story in which the
protagonist is totally destroyed -- not merely defeated, disappointed or
bummed out -- not by outside forces but by his/her own character excesses which
lead to ruinous actions vis a vis those outside forces. For example: Macbeth's
outsize ambition, Othello's outsize jealousy, Carmen's outsize sex drive.
The hero/heroine does indeed go down in flames, but he/she remains so absolutely
true to his/her nature that, in a magical way, the story is exciting and
beautiful. Although there's a cautionary element to the story, "cautionary" is a
mere secondary appeal. I guess catharsis is the best word for why a truly
tragic story has such a powerful effect on the reader/viewer.
WHAT I LIVED FOR does have a redemptive ending. MAN CRAZY is somewhat
different: we see that the heroine has survived the adversity, but we are left
up in the air as to whether her subsequent choice of male companions will be
better than her past unfortunate ones. FIRST LOVE is another redemptive JCO
novel(la). The young heroine's refusal to be used by the villain to victimize
other girls is the "happy ending." It's a gentle, hopeful, kind of happy ending
-- not the have-it-all-victory that sentimental fiction usually presents. In
FIRST LOVE: the villain goes unpunished and the girl quietly gets on with her
life.
I like your use of the word "earned." If the events of a story seem too
contrived and leave the reader unconvinced that the hero has gone through
something real, then the story feels fake, sentimental, goopy, etc.
Cyrano

In a message dated 9/10/2005 9:22:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
gjcouzens@btinternet.com writes:

<< In the greatest tragedies, a downbeat ending need not be depressing - it
can
be cathartic. People can die at the end of a story, but they can do so
heroically (sp?).

As in the examples you give, the protagonists do suffer a lot before they
reach their happy ending. It's uplifting (and not sentimental) if it's
earned, sentimental if it isn't.

How about "What I Lived For", for an example of a happy - or at least
redemptive - ending?

Gary >>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

RE: JCO: Upon the Sweeping Flood & uplifting fiction

Hi Cyrano:

> I'm in another literary discussion group in which this
> interesting topic recently came up: What are good examples of
> "uplifting fiction?"

I certainly don't want to suggest that all good fiction should have a sad or
ambiguous ending, but my own interests and prejudices are such that when I
see a term such as "uplifting fiction", my first reaction is to think of
Socialist Realism (can you imagine JCO being forced to work under the Soviet
system!). Note that when I say this, I'm describing my own personal
reaction. I absolutely don't mean to suggest that books that leave readers
with a positive feeling must be the moral equivalent of romances set in
tractor factories. I think, though, that I may be a bit like JCO in being
very attuned to how easily things can go wrong. Perhaps that's all the more
reason to benefit from being reminded that sometimes things go well.

SPOILERS FOLLOW RE "WINTERTHURN" & "BELLEFLEUR"

When I tried to think of works by JCO with a "positive" ending, "Bloodsmoor"
and "Winterthurn" were the only things that came to mind at once (and isn't
it like JCO to write a novel in which a couple achieves happiness by means
of axe murder?). On reflection, I'd say that some of JCO's other novels
have a different sort of uplift. For example, in "Bellefleur", you could
say that there's a distinctly positive aspect to the ending, both because
the world is a better place without the majority of the Bellefleur family in
it, and because some of the younger Bellefleurs escape, and have the hope of
living healthier lives than they could have done had they retained their
family connections. Once you start thinking in those terms, some of JCO's
other novels suggest positive elements in the end, if only because terribly
dysfunctional characters are beginning to assert themselves, even if they do
so in unhealthy or ineffective ways; we can imagine that, just possibly,
they may do better later on ("them", "Do With Me What You Will", "Man
Crazy"). But it's hard to think of works by JCO that give a final
impression of "Oh, how nice!"

One author who comes to mind as having great artistic integrity but
sometimes (not always!) providing more positive endings than JCO is Margaret
Drabble. Has your other group considered anything by her? Good luck!

Steve

I was
> trying to think
> which JCO works would best fill the bill. "We Were the
> Mulvaneys" came to
> mind first because -- although a lot of bad things happen in it,
> and at least one
> of the main characters is destroyed by the novel's end -- the other
> characters somehow manage to salvage their lives from the
> precipitating disaster, and
> the book concludes with a low-key happy ending at a family
> picnic. RAPE, A
> LOVE STORY and I'LL TAKE YOU THERE also concern protagonists who
> suffer much
> adversity but remake their lives in a good way by the novels'
> conclusions. Oddly
> enough, JCO's 9/11 story "The Mutants," collected in the book I
> AM NO ONE YOU
> KNOW, show its young woman protagonist surviving disaster and thereby
> "mutating" into a stronger, more aware person.
> The word "uplifting" is tricky. What seems uplifting and
> inspiring to
> one person may seem naive or sentimental to someone else. I
> remember some book
> reviews of "We Were the Mulvaneys" called the ending sentimental.
> Personally,
> I thought WWTM had an unusually happy ending for a JCO book --
> not counting
> the happy endings for Mysteries of Winterthurn and Bloodsmoor Romance.
> But then does "uplifting" necessarily mean happy ending?
> What do you
> think?
>
> In a message dated 9/9/2005 2:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jandsmerritt@earthlink.net writes:
>
> << There's a danger that, in our involvement with whatever we've
> done, under
> circumstances where our emotions are so roiled up by everything that's
> happened, we may feel impatient with those who follow different
> strategies
> from ours (something that sounds very much like a JCO theme). I have the
> greatest respect for your generosity, and you and those your are
> sheltering
> have my strongest hopes that everything will work out as well as possible
> for you all, given the tragic situation. I believe, though,
> that Cyrano's
> advice was not only well meant, but that it does contain
> something valuable
> to think about. I'm sure you're aware of people whose response to the
> hurricane is precisely the opposite of yours. The scammers
> (including, as
> you no doubt have heard, a group of anti-Semitic white supremacists) are
> already trying to take advantage of those who want to help, as well as of
> the victims themselves. Given the prevalence of fraud and other
> crimes on
> the internet, we can't automatically assume that the people advertising
> rooms for the victims necessarily have good motives. No doubt
> most of them
> do, and perhaps all of them do, but it's perfectly possible that some of
> them are looking for helpless people to take advantage of. Life, and the
> internet, repeatedly confirm that JCO doesn't make up her stories about
> monstrous predators purely out of her head. While person to person
> generosity is a particularly wonderful thing when it works, there's
> definitely something to be said for working through organizations such as
> the Red Cross that, whatever their shortcomings, can be expected
> not to do
> any deliberate harm, even when we have no personal knowledge of
> the people
> who work there. >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
>
> To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
> To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
> To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

Re: JCO: Upon the Sweeping Flood & uplifting fiction


----- Original Message -----
From: <Cyranomish@aol.com>
To: <jco@usfca.edu>
> But then does "uplifting" necessarily mean happy ending? What do you
> think?
>
In the greatest tragedies, a downbeat ending need not be depressing - it can
be cathartic. People can die at the end of a story, but they can do so
heroically (sp?).

As in the examples you give, the protagonists do suffer a lot before they
reach their happy ending. It's uplifting (and not sentimental) if it's
earned, sentimental if it isn't.

How about "What I Lived For", for an example of a happy - or at least
redemptive - ending?

Gary

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

Re: JCO: Upon the Sweeping Flood & uplifting fiction

Hi, Steve.
Well said. I think that the earlier-discussed JCO stories
"Swamps" and "The Census Taker" -- both collected in the late-1960s book BY THE
NORTH GATE
-- and the title story in the collection UPON THE SWEEPING FLOOD look at
people's impulses to help each other in a very fresh and interesting way.
I'm in another literary discussion group in which this
interesting topic recently came up: What are good examples of "uplifting fiction?"
We have been reading a number of novels in which conflict, social pathology
and ambivalent endings predominate. Group members are eager to find something
more "positive" and "uplifting" for our next selection. I was trying to think
which JCO works would best fill the bill. "We Were the Mulvaneys" came to
mind first because -- although a lot of bad things happen in it, and at least one
of the main characters is destroyed by the novel's end -- the other
characters somehow manage to salvage their lives from the precipitating disaster, and
the book concludes with a low-key happy ending at a family picnic. RAPE, A
LOVE STORY and I'LL TAKE YOU THERE also concern protagonists who suffer much
adversity but remake their lives in a good way by the novels' conclusions. Oddly
enough, JCO's 9/11 story "The Mutants," collected in the book I AM NO ONE YOU
KNOW, show its young woman protagonist surviving disaster and thereby
"mutating" into a stronger, more aware person.
The word "uplifting" is tricky. What seems uplifting and inspiring to
one person may seem naive or sentimental to someone else. I remember some book
reviews of "We Were the Mulvaneys" called the ending sentimental. Personally,
I thought WWTM had an unusually happy ending for a JCO book -- not counting
the happy endings for Mysteries of Winterthurn and Bloodsmoor Romance.
But then does "uplifting" necessarily mean happy ending? What do you
think?

In a message dated 9/9/2005 2:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jandsmerritt@earthlink.net writes:

<< There's a danger that, in our involvement with whatever we've done, under
circumstances where our emotions are so roiled up by everything that's
happened, we may feel impatient with those who follow different strategies
from ours (something that sounds very much like a JCO theme). I have the
greatest respect for your generosity, and you and those your are sheltering
have my strongest hopes that everything will work out as well as possible
for you all, given the tragic situation. I believe, though, that Cyrano's
advice was not only well meant, but that it does contain something valuable
to think about. I'm sure you're aware of people whose response to the
hurricane is precisely the opposite of yours. The scammers (including, as
you no doubt have heard, a group of anti-Semitic white supremacists) are
already trying to take advantage of those who want to help, as well as of
the victims themselves. Given the prevalence of fraud and other crimes on
the internet, we can't automatically assume that the people advertising
rooms for the victims necessarily have good motives. No doubt most of them
do, and perhaps all of them do, but it's perfectly possible that some of
them are looking for helpless people to take advantage of. Life, and the
internet, repeatedly confirm that JCO doesn't make up her stories about
monstrous predators purely out of her head. While person to person
generosity is a particularly wonderful thing when it works, there's
definitely something to be said for working through organizations such as
the Red Cross that, whatever their shortcomings, can be expected not to do
any deliberate harm, even when we have no personal knowledge of the people
who work there. >>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group

To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco