Re: JCO: Prolific

Cyrano, I think I remember that about Graham Green saying he wrote 500 words a day and then spent the rest of it socializing---I don't know if I believe him, but what a great thing to say!

 

And I like you, hope that Stephen King doesn't win the Nobel prize, much as I enjoy some of his stuff.......

 

Best wishes

Christa

Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

This goes WAY back in Updike's career; but I remember reading THE CENTAUR many years ago and being absolutely blown away by it.....and his short stories have always been remarkable.  My understanding is that he and JCO are close friends---I am sure either would be delighted if the other was awarded the prize, and even I would genuinely cheer Updike.

 

Best

Christa

Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

Was that the one in The Atlantic? Very, very short? ". . .as abruptly
as a girl letting fall her silken gown. . ." ??? I think that may have
been it.

Cyranomish@aol.com wrote:

>Hi, R. John Updike is a stong contender and long overdue. His novels BRAZIL
>and THE COUP prove that he's much more than a chronicler of US suburbia. His
>great story about 9/11 "Varieties of Religious Experience" is a must read.
>And his Pulizer-winning story collection THE EARLY STORIES is also excellent.
>A long time ago JCO noted in a review piece that one ought to be "grateful"
>for anthing Updike writes. I heartily second that!
>Cyrano
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: JCO: Prolific

Hi, Gary. I think Graham Greene said he wrote 500 words -- was that the
figure, Christa? -- each morning then had the rest of the day to go socializing.
Omigod, what if Stephen King wins the Nobel Prize. As if the US isn't
scary enough these days.
Cyrano

In a message dated 10/12/2005 7:12:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gjcouzens@btinternet.com writes:

<< Stephen King (in On Writing) states that he writes 2000 words a day, every
day. That would take me about three hours, assuming I'm not blocked or
distracted. >>
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Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

Hi, R. John Updike is a stong contender and long overdue. His novels BRAZIL
and THE COUP prove that he's much more than a chronicler of US suburbia. His
great story about 9/11 "Varieties of Religious Experience" is a must read.
And his Pulizer-winning story collection THE EARLY STORIES is also excellent.
A long time ago JCO noted in a review piece that one ought to be "grateful"
for anthing Updike writes. I heartily second that!
Cyrano

In a message dated 10/12/2005 2:02:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
RFoley7292@aol.com writes:

<< or John Updike. >>

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Re: JCO: Missing Mom

Hi, Eric. I'd always seen the character Marya as an amalgam of JCO's
university experiences and her mother's family experiences: after all, Marya does
"recover" her mother at the end of the novel. When MARYA was published JCO began
to reveal a lot of autobiographical info to the public, including her Jewish
ancestry, which had thus far been classified info.
Cyrano

In a message dated 10/12/2005 10:14:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
erickarl78@hotmail.com writes:

<< I hadn’t heard that Marya was based on her mother. That’s interesting
because I always assumed it was based more on Oates own experience of
univers >>
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Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

Of course, I have no idea who will be selected.and was just passing on mere speculation from a reading group I belong to whose members often try to keep up on those writers who are, to me, at least, more obscure and better known, perhaps, in other parts of the world than here.  Of course, all that speculation also depends upon whether the "leak" of nominated writers was accurate. 

Also reported in that Guardian article was that Jelinek's work is "whingeing, unenjoyable, violent pornography". 



Cindi  



RFoley7292@aol.com wrote:

Nobody is a shoo-in this year; from the scuttlebut I've heard, that's why the awards weren't made last week on the first Thursday of the month.  Tremendous dissension in the ranks.

 

There was an unprecedent article in today's NYTimes Arts Section noting that Knut Ahnlund, one of the judges quit his appointment and absolutely virulently trashed Elfriede Jelinek, last year's Austrian winner....wrote that her writing was "a mass of text that appears shoveled together without a trace of artistic structure..." and he further doubted that the committee had even read most of her work.  WOW.

 

That kind of publicity does not bode well for JCO who has ridiculously been criticized for  prolificity.

 

We don't really know what's going on....there's usually  no hint of dissension....but speculation is always fun.  We can only keep our fingers crossed that depth and diversity over a lifetime will be suitably rewarded.

 

 

 

Re: JCO: Prolific

Gary,

Reminds me of Anthony Trollope in his autobiography. He often had a
day job, too, and wrote in the mornings before he did anything else --
IIRC, something like 1,800 words a day, a certain number of days a
week. It's been years since I read it -- was so sad to see it end.

The discipline to write regularly is wonderful, and yet you have to
have time to go over the previous day's writing plus do the present
day's, and it's still the re-writing and re-writing and re-writing that
takes so much time. Life seems to often gets in the way of that. Ah,
well. . ..

Cindi

Gary Couzens wrote:

> John Updike nailed this one - like JCO, he's a writer from a
> blue-collar background who's often accused of writing too much. His
> point was, if you treat writing as your job, and work office hours,
> you will inevitably produce a lot of writing in a year.
>
> JCO publishes one adult novel under her own name a year, which is far
> from unusual. What adds to the impression of prolificity are the other
> things: the short stories and their collections, the book-length
> novellas, not to mention the essays, poems and plays. And add to that
> the other novels - the Rosamund Smiths and Lauren Kellys, and latterly
> the children's and YA books.
>
> Stephen King (in On Writing) states that he writes 2000 words a day,
> every day. That would take me about three hours, assuming I'm not
> blocked or distracted. (And I'm not a full-time writer so I have a day
> job to go to.) It's quite feasible to do 2000 words in a morning,
> leaving afternoons for other work, revision, and all the admin stuff
> (proof-reading etc) that we don't think about but which has to be part
> of a writer's life. At 2000 words a day, you could write an
> average-length novel in up to two months, and quite a hefty novel in
> three. Even one the length of Blonde won't take more than six months
> at that rate. So JCO's output doesn't seem that unreasonable - what
> makes the difference is that she obviously has the dedication and
> focus to produce the amount of words that she does. It's too easy - I
> know this myself too well - to get distracted or sidetracked, or let
> other things take over, and you soon start losing days when you could
> have been writing.
>
> Gary
> ----- Origi

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Re: JCO: Prolific

John Updike nailed this one - like JCO, he's a writer from a blue-collar
background who's often accused of writing too much. His point was, if you
treat writing as your job, and work office hours, you will inevitably
produce a lot of writing in a year.

JCO publishes one adult novel under her own name a year, which is far from
unusual. What adds to the impression of prolificity are the other things:
the short stories and their collections, the book-length novellas, not to
mention the essays, poems and plays. And add to that the other novels - the
Rosamund Smiths and Lauren Kellys, and latterly the children's and YA books.

Stephen King (in On Writing) states that he writes 2000 words a day, every
day. That would take me about three hours, assuming I'm not blocked or
distracted. (And I'm not a full-time writer so I have a day job to go to.)
It's quite feasible to do 2000 words in a morning, leaving afternoons for
other work, revision, and all the admin stuff (proof-reading etc) that we
don't think about but which has to be part of a writer's life. At 2000 words
a day, you could write an average-length novel in up to two months, and
quite a hefty novel in three. Even one the length of Blonde won't take more
than six months at that rate. So JCO's output doesn't seem that
unreasonable - what makes the difference is that she obviously has the
dedication and focus to produce the amount of words that she does. It's too
easy - I know this myself too well - to get distracted or sidetracked, or
let other things take over, and you soon start losing days when you could
have been writing.

Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: <Cyranomish@aol.com>
To: <jco@usfca.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: JCO: Prolific

> Hi, Steve.
> To some extent, it's a red-herring issue. Dedicated athletes run, swim,
> lift
> weights, etc. on a daily basis. Mystics pray day & night. Tycoons study
> the
> market every day. In order to stay at a high level of performance, a
> daily
> application is needed. And, of course, the more one does one's art, the
> more
> accomplished one becomes.
> For those of us who would like to discuss (or read about) JCO's art on
> a
> deeper level, book reviews are really not the venue. Scholarly journals,
> literary magazines and right here on this site are the best places to get
> into
> deep analysis. Book reviews are as much about marketing as anything else:
> that's why publishers send so many free books out to newspapers and
> individual
> reviewers. Many of those books wind up languishing in "slush piles" until
> the
> magazine or newspaper gives a load of them to local libraries or
> hospitals. When
> I write a standard 500-word book review: I'm directing it mainly to
> prospective readers -- to people who ordinarily don't think to pick up a
> book for their
> edification or amusement. On occasions when I've interviewed JCO, I've
> attempted to take the discussion beyond the "how do you do it?" level by
> noting
> that JCO answered that question several decades ago in Writer Magazine
> with the
> simple advice: "A writer writes." It is fascinating how much she has
> accomplished and the general public is right to admire it. No, rate of
> output
> shouldn't be treated as the explanation for why some of her works are more
> affecting
> than others. That does seem to be a cop-out that some reviewers resort
> to.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 10/10/2005 5:39:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jandsmerritt@earthlink.net writes:
>
> << Hi Cyrano:
>
> Ah, but your point about the various genres she's worked in is a valid,
> constructive observation, and worth, as you say, repeating for the benefit
> of readers new to JCO. It's different when someone starts out a review
> with
> the moral equivalent of "Ooh wow, man, look at this writing machine!
> Gross!" or even the more benign "I don't know how she does it, but she
> does!", which still implies someone abnormal, or even a sort of esthetic
> cheater, because she "shouldn't" be able to maintain a high level of
> achievment while writing a lot. After all, why shouldn't someone with a
> lot
> of talent, who loves to write and who has a somewhat driven personality,
> produce a lot of good writing?
>
> Steve >>
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Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

Fingers crossed for Joyce, but I'll admit that I'd be equally happy if Doris Lessing got it.  She's been mentioned for it quite often as well...

 

Drew

Re: JCO: Missing Mom

Eric, Cyrano, et. al......

 

 

I think the idea of discussing Missing Mom in November is an excellent idea.  It will be fun to discuss a work of JCO's that we are all reading for the first time....as Cyrano says, often we get caught up in reviewer bashing, and don't discuss the book itself.  I believe that's partly because some of us have such definite ideas of JCO's older works that we fear simply repeating ourselves......anyway, let's do it:)

 

By the way, re: the Nobel Prize------in embarrassment at having become hysterical over perfectly harmless comparison's to JCO's work and Hurricane Katrina, I promise NOT to become hysterical if JCO does not win.  For this ONE year, I will not trash whoever gets it and drag out all my old Graham Green bitterness.   Now, for those who know me, that is REAL penance LOL.  But here is keeping my fingers crossed for JCO tomorrow.

 

Best to all,

Christa

JCO: Tea

Could you please post the author's name again?  I'm unable to retrieve it.  Linda

Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

or John Updike.

Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

Nobody is a shoo-in this year; from the scuttlebut I've heard, that's why the awards weren't made last week on the first Thursday of the month.  Tremendous dissension in the ranks.

 

There was an unprecedent article in today's NYTimes Arts Section noting that Knut Ahnlund, one of the judges quit his appointment and absolutely virulently trashed Elfriede Jelinek, last year's Austrian winner....wrote that her writing was "a mass of text that appears shoveled together without a trace of artistic structure..." and he further doubted that the committee had even read most of her work.  WOW.

 

That kind of publicity does not bode well for JCO who has ridiculously been criticized for  prolificity.

 

We don't really know what's going on....there's usually  no hint of dissension....but speculation is always fun.  We can only keep our fingers crossed that depth and diversity over a lifetime will be suitably rewarded.

 

 

 

Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

It's the website of The Guardian, a national daily newspaper in the UK, so it's reputable.

Gary

And like every other reputable paper, they are reporting on "speculation." They (all of the reputable papers) have no sources of verifiable information. They do not know who is nominated; they do not know who is on the Nobel committee's "short list"; they do not know who the "front-runners" are. So every year otherwise reputable papers become rumor-mongers because otherwise they would have nothing to report other than "the Nobel Prize in Literature will be announced on thursday."

Randy

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Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

I really wouldn�t take too much notice of rumours about who will win the
prize, even from reputable newspapers. It�s shrouded in so much secrecy
nobody knows. In the past, it�s always been so much of a surprise who the
winner is that �bookies� favourites don�t really factor too much into it. Of
course, that doesn�t mean we can�t all hope the best for JCO!

Eric

>From: Cindi Dennis <pcdennis@adelphia.net>
>Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
>To: jco@usfca.edu
>Subject: Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday,
>10/13/2005
>Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:03:56 -0700
>
>FWIW, at my monthly book group discussion last night, at least two members
>stated clearly that they did not think JCO would be under serious
>consideration for a Nobel and thought I must surely have mistaken that she
>was being considered for it, that it must have been, perhaps, the
>PEN/Faulkner or some such (which is why, before I found it on a Google
>search, I wrote to the group this morning asking). On surveying some of
>them again this morning, I find the general concensus to be that Pamuk is a
>shoo-in for the award. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.
>
>Xing my fingers.
>
>
>SMorales wrote:
>
>>Hi everyone,
>>I think this year's award will be for a man...hope I'm wrong, though!
>>Silvia
>>
>>
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JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

It's the website of The Guardian, a national daily newspaper in the UK, so it's reputable.

 

Gary

----- Original Message -----

From: Cindi Dennis

To: jco@usfca.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:23 PM

Subject: JCO: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

"There has been speculation that the academy was split over whether to hand this year's prize to the Turkish novelist Orhan Pamuk. Other names mentioned have included the Syrian poet Adonis, the American Joyce Carol Oates, and the Swede Thomas Transtromer. The award, worth 10m krona (£735,000), is usually announced on one of the first two Thursdays in October. Unlike the Nobels for peace, medicine, physics, chemistry and economics, the prize date is only announced two days beforehand." 

The above paragraph is from something called "The Guardian Unlimited" -- don't know what it is or whether it is a reputable publication, but some of you may well know.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1589846,00.html

Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

FWIW, at my monthly book group discussion last night, at least two
members stated clearly that they did not think JCO would be under
serious consideration for a Nobel and thought I must surely have
mistaken that she was being considered for it, that it must have been,
perhaps, the PEN/Faulkner or some such (which is why, before I found it
on a Google search, I wrote to the group this morning asking). On
surveying some of them again this morning, I find the general concensus
to be that Pamuk is a shoo-in for the award. I guess we'll find out
tomorrow.

Xing my fingers.

SMorales wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> I think this year's award will be for a man...hope I'm wrong, though!
> Silvia
>
>
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Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

And I forgot to add that maybe this could be Philip Roth's year?

Re: JCO: Re: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

Hi everyone,

I think this year's award will be for a man...hope I'm wrong, though!

Silvia

 

Gary Couzens <gjcouzens@btinternet.com> wrote:

It's the website of The Guardian, a national daily newspaper in the UK, so it's reputable.

 

Gary

----- Original Message -----

From: Cindi Dennis

To: jco@usfca.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:23 PM

Subject: JCO: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

"There has been speculation that the academy was split over whether to hand this year's prize to the Turkish novelist Orhan Pamuk. Other names mentioned have included the Syrian poet Adonis, the American Joyce Carol Oates, and the Swede Thomas Transtromer. The award, worth 10m krona (£735,000), is usually announced on one of the first two Thursdays in October. Unlike the Nobels for peace, medicine, physics, chemistry and economics, the prize date is only announced two days beforehand." 

The above paragraph is from something called "The Guardian Unlimited" -- don't know what it is or whether it is a reputable publication, but some of you may well know.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1589846,00.html

JCO: Nobel for literature to be awarded Thursday, 10/13/2005

"There has been speculation that the academy was split over whether to hand this year's prize to the Turkish novelist Orhan Pamuk. Other names mentioned have included the Syrian poet Adonis, the American Joyce Carol Oates, and the Swede Thomas Transtromer. The award, worth 10m krona (£735,000), is usually announced on one of the first two Thursdays in October. Unlike the Nobels for peace, medicine, physics, chemistry and economics, the prize date is only announced two days beforehand." 

The above paragraph is from something called "The Guardian Unlimited" -- don't know what it is or whether it is a reputable publication, but some of you may well know.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1589846,00.html

JCO: List of journals and other literary publications + JCO nomination

I no longer have this week's messages on my computer. Which award is it
again that JCO is nominated for and which you hope she will win?

Also, someone on this list mentioned that many popular literary reviews
are for the purpose of publicizing a work, and that those reviews are
not necessarily the best for analysis of a particular book. would like
to know which literary journals you recommend for reading more about
fictional works and their authors.

Thank you for any information you have time to share.

Cynthia

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Re: JCO: Missing Mom

Hi Cyrano,

Yes, I think November would be a good time to discuss the book. Hopefully
several people in the group will have read it or be reading it then so we
can discuss aspects of the book.

I hadn�t heard that Marya was based on her mother. That�s interesting
because I always assumed it was based more on Oates own experience of
university.
Yes, no doubt these irrational frustrations and directionless pain inform
the body of a lot of Oates� fiction. But the real writing and craftmanship
that examines this pain begins with Oates� fearless ability to question why,
a kind of philosophical investigation into the mystery of these stultifying
emotions. A person can objectively state that feelings of rejection from
being given up for adoption should be dismissed because it obviously has
nothing to do with them personally, but the circumstances involved. But, of
course, such feelings aren�t so easy to overcome. Oates ability to
illustrate the manifestations of this pain which defies ration is what makes
her fiction so compelling I think.

Eric

>From: Cyranomish@aol.com
>Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
>To: jco@usfca.edu
>Subject: Re: JCO: Missing Mom
>Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:04:21 EDT
>
>Hi, Eric. I look forward to getting my copy of Missing Mom later this
>month.
> I always read a book before I read its reviews, or even the raves on the
>book's paper overjacket: a worthy old book-reviewing habit. Discussions of
>JCO's
>latest books here on Tone Clusters too often begin and end with the reviews
>-- and various angry reactions to reviewers who seem envious and/or
>ignorant.
>Would November be a good month for a general discussion here of the book
>and
>our own unmediated reactions to it? I expect to have MM read by the end of
>October. (MM is not one of the books I'm reviewing this year, and someone
>else
>took it out of the newspaper slush pile before I could get it -- dang!)
> It's a happy coincidence you mentioned "About Schmidt." I just saw
>it
>last weekend for the second time and realized how refreshing it is to see a
>character study movie done so well -- and with a major star like Nicholson.
> The
>ending of that film is so beautiful. And Nicholson's performance as a
>Midwestern businessman -- my family is full of them -- is a gem. Not many
>actors
>would consent to being filmed sitting on a toilet in the abject,
>"hen-pecked"
>manner that Schmidt does.
> "The brutality of never mattering" is an interesting issue. JCO has
>in
>past interviews noted her mother's lifelong pain at having been put out for
>adoption by her own parents. From what I understand, JCO's mother was
>raised by
>other relatives who lived nearby -- the heroine of MARYA, a character
>inspired
>partly by JCO's mother, according to interviews with JCO around the time of
>MARYA's publication -- had a similar situation. Being, in effect,
>"rejected"
>by one's own mother and then raised in close proximity to that mother must
>have
>been very painful. And pain is a rich lode for fiction-writing.
>Cyrano
>
>
>In a message dated 10/11/2005 1:47:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>erickarl78@hotmail.com writes:
>
><< To me it felt like she was circling around Missing Mom in favour of
>talking
> about her admiration for Oates’ work in general and her overall respect
>for
> what she’s produced. She did make me think about the novel from a
>different
> point of view though, that perhaps Oates was contemplating “the
>brutality of
> never mattering” and class politics instead of just the personal
>process of
> a period of grieving. This is a similar idea to the one expressed in the
> excellent film “About Schmidt”. In this movie, a man at retirement
>age who
> has led a very straightforward life begins questioning what the
>accumulation
> of all his little life’s details signifies when contemplating if he
>really
> matters to the world. It’s an unsettling thought and one which Oates
> protagonist of Missing Mom is obviously struggling with when examining
>the
> physical things that amount to her parents’ life work. >>
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Re: JCO: Missing Mom

Hi, Eric. I look forward to getting my copy of Missing Mom later this month.
I always read a book before I read its reviews, or even the raves on the
book's paper overjacket: a worthy old book-reviewing habit. Discussions of JCO's
latest books here on Tone Clusters too often begin and end with the reviews
-- and various angry reactions to reviewers who seem envious and/or ignorant.
Would November be a good month for a general discussion here of the book and
our own unmediated reactions to it? I expect to have MM read by the end of
October. (MM is not one of the books I'm reviewing this year, and someone else
took it out of the newspaper slush pile before I could get it -- dang!)
It's a happy coincidence you mentioned "About Schmidt." I just saw it
last weekend for the second time and realized how refreshing it is to see a
character study movie done so well -- and with a major star like Nicholson. The
ending of that film is so beautiful. And Nicholson's performance as a
Midwestern businessman -- my family is full of them -- is a gem. Not many actors
would consent to being filmed sitting on a toilet in the abject, "hen-pecked"
manner that Schmidt does.
"The brutality of never mattering" is an interesting issue. JCO has in
past interviews noted her mother's lifelong pain at having been put out for
adoption by her own parents. From what I understand, JCO's mother was raised by
other relatives who lived nearby -- the heroine of MARYA, a character inspired
partly by JCO's mother, according to interviews with JCO around the time of
MARYA's publication -- had a similar situation. Being, in effect, "rejected"
by one's own mother and then raised in close proximity to that mother must have
been very painful. And pain is a rich lode for fiction-writing.
Cyrano

In a message dated 10/11/2005 1:47:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
erickarl78@hotmail.com writes:

<< To me it felt like she was circling around Missing Mom in favour of
talking
about her admiration for Oates’ work in general and her overall respect for
what she’s produced. She did make me think about the novel from a different
point of view though, that perhaps Oates was contemplating “the brutality of
never mattering” and class politics instead of just the personal process of
a period of grieving. This is a similar idea to the one expressed in the
excellent film “About Schmidt”. In this movie, a man at retirement age who
has led a very straightforward life begins questioning what the accumulation
of all his little life’s details signifies when contemplating if he really
matters to the world. It’s an unsettling thought and one which Oates
protagonist of Missing Mom is obviously struggling with when examining the
physical things that amount to her parents’ life work. >>
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