Re: JCO: The Falls

Hi Cyrano and Anna,

I have been listening in on this and other similar conversations about
"poor Ariah" and wish to offer some thoughts about the woman.

I don't see her as a villain, as I understand villainy to be more
intentionally hurtful than these actions of hers.

I see her as, on the one hand, a woman terrified of the world outside
her control (aren't we all??) and doing what she can to protect
herself, and in a funny way, her children.

I also see her as someone who wishes to find her own way, however
misguided we may view it, and as her story plays out,
this impression is confirmed for me.

It is this quality of JCO's writing that I personally am so taken
with, in that she seems able to articulate the deep complexity of
human motivation and relationships, and for me, at least, I find it
very hard to identify either villains or victims (per se) in her
works, however villainous or passive a particular individual may be.

It's certainly not that I would have agreed with many of Ariah's
actions if I had been her friend, but if I had been her friend I would
have had some understanding of her fears and dreams that drove her in
these directions.

I'm loving the depth this conversation is going.

ruth

On 2-Mar-05, at 10:19 PM, LSULLA@aol.com wrote:

ArialHi Cyrano,

Arial 

ArialLet me think about this.  By
no means is Ariah a "stock" villian.  However, her self-centered
behavior created a series of malevolent consequences.  This is a 
short list of  her psychological crimes:

Arial 

Ariala)  she was silent and
hostile to the minister after the wedding night and no doubt drove him
over the edge

Arial 

Arialb)  she cut off the
minister's parents and denied them any knowledge of their son's last
hours.

Arial 

Arialc)  she cut off her parents
and deprived her children of a relationship with their grandparents

Arial 

Ariald)  she isolated herself
from Dirk's law practice and  provided  absolutely no solace to him

Arial when he took on a very
important and difficult case. Dirk went through the anguish of losing
his friends and his social position alone.  She did nothing to comfort
him.

Arial 

Ariale) she stunted the
development of her children.

Arial 

Arialf)  she disinherited her
children from their father's estate and forced them to live in penury.

Arial 

Arialg)  she crushed her young
daughter and drove her to psychosis

Arial 

Arialh)  she denied her children
knowledge of their father's background and of his heroism

Arial 

ArialThe crazy family of grifters
in "My Heart Laid Bare" caused less damage than Ariah.  The actress
sister in "A Bloodsmoor Romance"  who almost killed Mark Twain during
lovemaking caused less harm than Ariah.

Arial 

ArialAlma in "The Tatooed Girl" 
was vulnerable and damaged.  She perforned nasty and anti-semitic acts
 to ingratiate herself with her asshole "boyfriend".  She was
disadvantaged and unloved but she was not 1% as threathening as Ariah.
Anyway,  Alma redeemed herself in the end.

Arial 

ArialThere was no  redemption for
Ariah.

Arial 

ArialAnna

Arial 

Arial 

Arial 

Re: JCO: The Falls

Hi Cyrano,

 

Let me think about this.  By no means is Ariah a "stock" villian.  However, her self-centered behavior created a series of malevolent consequences.  This is a  short list of  her psychological crimes:

 

a)  she was silent and hostile to the minister after the wedding night and no doubt drove him over the edge

 

b)  she cut off the minister's parents and denied them any knowledge of their son's last hours.

 

c)  she cut off her parents and deprived her children of a relationship with their grandparents

 

d)  she isolated herself from Dirk's law practice and  provided  absolutely no solace to him

when he took on a very important and difficult case. Dirk went through the anguish of losing his friends and his social position alone.  She did nothing to comfort him.

 

e) she stunted the development of her children.

 

f)  she disinherited her children from their father's estate and forced them to live in penury.

 

g)  she crushed her young daughter and drove her to psychosis

 

h)  she denied her children knowledge of their father's background and of his heroism

 

The crazy family of grifters in "My Heart Laid Bare" caused less damage than Ariah.  The actress sister in "A Bloodsmoor Romance"  who almost killed Mark Twain during lovemaking caused less harm than Ariah.

 

Alma in "The Tatooed Girl"  was vulnerable and damaged.  She perforned nasty and anti-semitic acts  to ingratiate herself with her asshole "boyfriend".  She was disadvantaged and unloved but she was not 1% as threathening as Ariah. Anyway,  Alma redeemed herself in the end.

 

There was no  redemption for Ariah.

 

Anna

 

 

 

Re: JCO: RE: Winterthurn

You're right about that, Eric.  Many years ago -- late Seventies, early Eighties -- I read a

review or an interview in which she claimed Wonderland was her best novel.  I'd just

finished reading Son of the Morning and had a brief correspondence with her at the

University of Windsor, where whe was working at the time, to appreciatively debate the

issue. I recall that she was very good-natured in her replies.

;

Eric Anderson <erickarl78@hotmail.com> wrote:

I think she speaks about her closeness to the novel in the Franklin Library
edition's introduction to Winterthurn. I can't remember where she might have
referred to it as her best work either. However, I do recall in some
interviews her referring to We Were the Mulvaneys as her best work. I assume
her opinion of her own work fluctuates and she is probably more naturally
inclined to feel close to works she's finished recently.

Eric

>From: "jandsmerritt"
>Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
>To:
>Subject: JCO: RE: Winterthurn
>Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:02:57 -0500
>
>Hi Tanya:
>
>
> > Recently in a discussion about the thrillers, somebody mentioned
> > JCO having said
> > that she felt Winterthurn was one of her best novels. Do you
&! gt; > know where she
> > might have written or said this?
>
>I think I'm the "somebody" in question. Unfortunately, I can't remember
>exact references. I seem to recall that she wrote this in an afterward,
>possibly to a paperback edition of "Winterthurn", but perhaps to something
>else. Anyway, I'm just about sure that this was something that came out in
>the '80's. And I think she said it in interviews at the time, too. I seem
>to recall coming across a more recent interview in which she also referred
>to it as one of her best works, but again I don't have a reference.
>
>Sorry,
>
>Steve
>
>
>
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JCO: RE: Winterthurn

I think she speaks about her closeness to the novel in the Franklin Library
edition's introduction to Winterthurn. I can't remember where she might have
referred to it as her best work either. However, I do recall in some
interviews her referring to We Were the Mulvaneys as her best work. I assume
her opinion of her own work fluctuates and she is probably more naturally
inclined to feel close to works she's finished recently.

Eric

>From: "jandsmerritt"
>Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
>To:
>Subject: JCO: RE: Winterthurn
>Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:02:57 -0500
>
>Hi Tanya:
>
>
> > Recently in a discussion about the thrillers, somebody mentioned
> > JCO having said
> > that she felt Winterthurn was one of her best novels. Do you
> > know where she
> > might have written or said this?
>
>I think I'm the "somebody" in question. Unfortunately, I can't remember
>exact references. I seem to recall that she wrote this in an afterward,
>possibly to a paperback edition of "Winterthurn", but perhaps to something
>else. Anyway, I'm just about sure that this was something that came out in
>the '80's. And I think she said it in interviews at the time, too. I seem
>to recall coming across a more recent interview in which she also referred
>to it as one of her best works, but again I don't have a reference.
>
>Sorry,
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
>
>To send a message to the group, email jco@usfca.edu
>To subscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: subscribe jco
>To unsubscribe, email majordomo@usfca.edu: unsubscribe jco

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Re: JCO: The Falls

In a message dated 3/2/2005 10:20:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LSULLA@aol.com
writes:

<< e) she (Ariah) stunted the development of her children.

I guess this is a subcategory of the above, but she almost persuaded her son
to contract a loveless marriage and -- but for the Woman in Black -- would
have succeeded.
Cyrano
>>
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JCO: RE: Winterthurn

Hi Tanya:

> Recently in a discussion about the thrillers, somebody mentioned
> JCO having said
> that she felt Winterthurn was one of her best novels. Do you
> know where she
> might have written or said this?

I think I'm the "somebody" in question. Unfortunately, I can't remember
exact references. I seem to recall that she wrote this in an afterward,
possibly to a paperback edition of "Winterthurn", but perhaps to something
else. Anyway, I'm just about sure that this was something that came out in
the '80's. And I think she said it in interviews at the time, too. I seem
to recall coming across a more recent interview in which she also referred
to it as one of her best works, but again I don't have a reference.

Sorry,

Steve

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